The Gaming Den

Kaelik wrote:But that doesn't actually have anything to do with this situation.

I'm not discriminating against anything, I am failing to discriminate. I consider Ceiling Cat's desire for X identical to other desires for Y, in that sense that I support the right in general to have and pursue desires, but don't really care what anyones desires actually are.

Here's a little more context...

Your earlier comment was this:

Kaelik on page 9 of this thread wrote:Do you believe that I don't respect people with tattoos? I mean fuck. Why would you think I have something against tattoos? Why should I respect someone's desire to be a woman more than I respect their desire to play basketball, or their desire to look awesome in a leather jacket, or their desire to shoot heroin?

PLEASE EXPLAIN, I AM REALLY FUCKING CONFUSED! Why is Ceiling Cat's desire to be a woman more important than anyone else's desire for anything else? Why should I be required to apply some different set of standards to this one desire than I do to everything else? What are these mysterious standards that I am supposed to apply?

I was just answering your question with the piledriven answer I received for comparing breastfeeding to public homosexual displays of affection in the Why Is It Okay To Hate Openly Gay People? thread.

The overwhelming response was that it's totally OK to be a bigot as long as the recipient can help it.

Kaelik wrote:Also, your statement makes no sense whatsoever, because there is absolutely no desire that anyone in the universe has that isn't directly tied to biology. Ceiling Cat's transgenderism is exactly as biological as my desire to be a computer, or biker guys desire to have tattoos and ride motorcycles.

Please don't mistake my paraphrasing for my personal belief. I never agreed with that notion. I would wager, though, that if a child's desire to eat (and the corresponding desire for the boob-possessor to provide food) isn't considered biological enough in nature, that wanting a new motorcycle isn't going to fly.

Quite frankly, I'm largely with you in this retarded debate. I use the term bitch much like you do, and your comments regarding feminism were something I agreed with. When I first read your he-laced comments directed at Cieling Cat, however, I did think you did it on purpose, but I also consider reading the ensuing posts on the subject enough of a punishment that I don't need to really comment further on it.

Cielingcat wrote:For clarification, neither me nor the majority of trans people have had srs, as it is a very expensive procedure that is rarely ever covered by insurance. Most people who get it have to pony up about twenty thousand dollars, and a good chunk of that is not going to come back to them.

And... how does that differentiate you from guys with girlish/feminine tendencies?

For example, I'm a guy. But I am totally fine with going SQUEE even if my friends laugh at me for it and say it's only for girls.

It's also technically true that black people can be referred to by the n-word, as it, after all, is literally a term for black people! But I don't think even you would defend using that on a technicality.

If you're saying it's a slur, say it's a slur to people of your condition/preference/whatever (I don't know what term to use. So sue me). Because in the context of the actual procedure, the description is accurate. And words mean different things to different people.

The n-word for instance is often perfectly fine to use if it's blacks talking to blacks.

And personally, while I'm inclined to follow people's wishes just to be polite (I call Kaelik an "it" now because of its insistence), I do tend to think this is getting extremely silly, and that you're honestly beginning to turn this into a sympathy fishing expedition. Which I honestly find a very tiresome and stupid thing to see on the Internet.

Don't go to a forum of strangers if you want to feel good about being transgender/gay/whatever.

Zinegata wrote:And... how does that differentiate you from guys with girlish/feminine tendencies?

Because I'm not a guy. I don't identify as one, the fact that my body developed along a typically male pattern has caused so much distress that it became literally unlivable.

If you're actually curious about it, there are a bunch of people a lot more articulate than me who have written at length about trans identities and what they mean. Googling "transgender 101" or something similar should find some of them.

Maj wrote:The overwhelming response was that it's totally OK to be a bigot as long as the recipient can help it.

Kaelik, what Maj is trying to say is that you should feel free to call other people racist, sexist, or whatever even if it's not true.

But stop when they break down and start crying. Because it makes other people feel bad.

And making other people feel bad makes them use terms like racist and sexist more. Which makes other people start to break down and cry. And all this results in a massive cycle of negativity that will cause entrophy to accelerate and end all life on the universe.

I think.

Zinegata wrote:
It's technically true. We've been over this before. Repeatedly.

The procedure does not turn a man into a woman. It's just... a form of plastic surgery.

Okay, this is on the face of it wrong for many reasons, but since people have already slammed you with 'you're an ignorant fuckstick for insisting this' angle, I'll start out with the science-based one, because Lago always loves using the stupid bigotry of other people to educate the people at home.

Sex is a biological construct, gender is a sociological (and thus psychological) construct. This is why Data is a male and KOS-MOS is a female despite having no chromosomes. You want a real-world example? Google the term 'sworn woman'.

The English language doesn't differentiate between biological females and sociological females. They're both called the exact same terms, but it generally doesn't matter since usually the sex and gender match up. but sometimes they don't, which is why people are transgendered. Yeah, society assigns people gender--much like society assigns a bunch of labels like N-word and feminazi and all that shit. But in our marginally more enlightened age, people have the choice to divest certain labels. Cielingcat will probably never in her lifetime be able to get rid of the 'XY chromosome male' label, but she can do something about the 'gendered male' one just as easily as people can just say 'no, I'm not a feminazi' or 'no, I'm not a pinko Red-loving communist'.

So with that tidbit over, let me say in no uncertain terms: Zinegata, you are a coward. You are trying to use the ambiguities in the English language to hide behind your prejudice. Fortunately, both common sense and science proves you to be the sniveling weasel you really are.

Cielingcat wrote:Because I'm not a guy. I don't identify as one, the fact that my body developed along a typically male pattern has caused so much distress that it became literally unlivable.

If you're actually curious about it, there are a bunch of people a lot more articulate than me who have written at length about trans identities and what they mean. Googling "transgender 101" or something similar should find some of them.

Yes. But those people in other sites aren't the ones talking about it here. Honestly, I don't really get how it works - is it biologicial, psychological, or whatever. And so far the Internet sources don't seem to agree.

But anyway, like I said I'm perfectly willing to call people "it" for the sake of being polite. You don't be a jackass towards me, and I won't be a jackass towards you. It's a simple rule. Just don't expect me to know what is considered to be a jackass comment for a transgender without clarification .

Lago PARANOIA wrote:Okay, this is on the face of it wrong for many reasons, but since people have already slammed you with 'you're an ignorant fuckstick for insisting this' angle, I'll start out with the science-based one, because Lago always loves using the stupid bigotry of other people to educate the people at home.

LAGO, you missed the polite end to the conversation. Hello?

Also, no one's slammed me with this "ignorant fuckstick" angle. Crissa has been running around like an idiot quoting random blogs with no relation to the topic because a Tea Bagger apparently dumped her or something, but so far I'm conducting myself in what I feel is an appropriate way.

Which is to treat people accordingly.

And that means being a jackass to jackasses like you.

Sex is a biological construct, gender is a sociological (and thus psychological) construct. This is why Data is a male and KOS-MOS is a female despite having no chromosomes. You want a real-world example? Google the term 'sworn woman'.

The English language doesn't differentiate between biological females and sociological females. They're both called the exact same terms, but it generally doesn't matter since usually the sex and gender match up. but sometimes they don't, which is why people are transgendered. Yeah, society assigns people gender--much like society assigns a bunch of labels like N-word and feminazi and all that shit. But in our marginally more enlightened age, people have the choice to divest certain labels. Cielingcat will probably never in her lifetime be able to get rid of the 'XY chromosome male' label, but she can do something about the 'gendered male' one just as easily as people can just say 'no, I'm not a feminazi' or 'no, I'm not a pinko Red-loving communist'.

Did you miss the fact I was referring to the procedure and not the person?

Hmmm... yes you did. Very much.

I want my apology please. But I honestly don't expect it. Because you behave like a jackass more concerned with "winning" and "beating down" the other guy.

So with that tidbit over, let me say in no uncertain terms: Zinegata, you are a coward. You are trying to use the ambiguities in the English language to hide behind your prejudice. Fortunately, both common sense and science proves you to be the sniveling weasel you really are.

LAGO, I pretty much tell people in no uncertain terms that they are a bitch or an idiot, or a moron. However, like I have repeatedly said I'm totally cool with calling people what they want to be called if it makes them happy.

The only condition is that you don't be a jackass in return. It's called being civil.

Don't mistake civility for cowardice.

And the truth is LAGO, is that you're one of the raging liberal idiots I keep talking about. That's why you take pleasure when supposed bigots have to grind their teeth at stuff like gay marriage. Except that a lot of those people probably aren't bigots at all. You just think they are, because you've caricatured them under the label of bible-thumping dumb right wingers instead of people.

And that's the only reason why you're being self-rightous right now. You already have a caricature of me. And you prefer to cling to that caricature because it's easy to hurl insults at a caricature and not a real person.

You're just as bad as Kaelik honestly. Maybe a little worse.

Oh, and yeah, I do have a prejudice, but it's not towards the transgendered.

I have a prejudice towards hacks who put ideology over common sense.

I have a prejudice towards hacks who put ideology over believing that people aren't assholes just because they cling to beliefs they don't hold.

And that's why you, Crissa, and Ganbare have me to play with .

Jackass.

If someone wants a little extra consideration beyond the standard in order to feel good about themselves then how is that any skin off my nose? Is it really such a pain in the ass to respect that?

I can't see how communication has to be so rigid that anyone would viciously fight for their preference to ignore someone's polite request.

WTF is wrong with the Internet?

Hm.

WHAT A STUPID QUESTION.

@Maj: Okay, understood. As I believe I mentioned in that thread, if someone is opposed to all sexual displays, including straight kissing, then they are just a prude, and who cares. It only matters when they approve of guy girl kissing but oppose guy guy kissing that it is an issue of bigotry.

Lago PARANOIA wrote:

Kaelik wrote: I'm not discriminating against anything, I am failing to discriminate. I consider Ceiling Cat's desire for X identical to other desires for Y, in that sense that I support the right in general to have and pursue desires, but don't really care what anyones desires actually are.

You really don't know what discrimination is, do you?

Calling someone a 'fake woman', which is exactly what you're doing, is as discriminatory as calling someone an N-word.

I'm not calling Ceiling Cat a fake woman. I am pointing out that Ceiling Cat is physically male, but would rather be physically female. I may be wrong about specific desires, but that is how I understand it currently.

As such, I am going to treat Ceiling Cat exactly like anyone else who one quality, and would prefer to have an opposing quality.

What I don't understand is why I should instead treat Ceiling Cat differently than I do anyone else with a desire.

As to being sociologically male or female, I have no idea what Ceiling Cat is, or what Ceiling Cat wants, nor will I ever, because I've never been able to tell any sociological differences over the internet, and very few meaningful ones in person, so it has, as far as I can tell, absolutely no bearing on this conversation whatsoever.

Cielingcat wrote:It's also technically true that black people can be referred to by the n-word, as it, after all, is literally a term for black people! But I don't think even you would defend using that on a technicality.

Except that since you apparently have an XY chromosone pair, what you are apparently objecting to is calling a black person black. You are physically male, and apparently don't want to be. That sucks for you. I also have various desires for changing my body, some of which are not possible, and some of which are much easier than saving up $20,000 and doing whatever else you have to do.

What I fail to understand is why equating your desires with mine is somehow offensive to you. Do you think I don't respect my own desires? I can assure you I do. And while I don't personally care about what you do because I don't know you, I would treat anyone who attempted to prevent you from enacting your desire the same as I would treat anyone who opposed gay marriage, or who opposed abortions.

mean_liar wrote:viciously fight for their preference to ignore someone's polite request.

And just out of curiosity, who do you think is ignoring a polite request, and what polite request?

Could I politely request that people not lie by saying that I say something I didn't, like for example, lying that I oppose abortion?

Kaelik wrote:What I don't understand is why I should instead treat Ceiling Cat differently than I do anyone else with a desire.

Because it is nice.

LOL?

Could I politely request that people not lie by saying that I say something I didn't, like for example, lying that I oppose abortion?

Yes, you can absolutely do that. In fact, one would assume such a thing would not occur - lying, that is - without the necessity of a request.

Lying is always a no-no.

mean_liar wrote:

Kaelik wrote:What I don't understand is why I should instead treat Ceiling Cat differently than I do anyone else with a desire.

Because it is nice.

LOL?

How is that nice? It seems like an incredibly dick move to discriminate against everyone else in the universe except Ceiling Cat.

Why should I be nice to someone who a) I barely know, and b) is a filthy liar, at the expense of everyone else.

If Ceiling Cat says "I have a desire to murder Mean Liar" should I then treat that desire differently that I treat other peoples desire to murder Mean Liar? Should we have a special Ceiling Cat exception in the law?

If not, then why should we have a special Ceiling Cat exception where I am required to value Ceiling Cats desire using some other criteria than the one I already use to judge you and Crissa and Ganbare and Uber and IGTN and Frank?

Are you really not grasping what I am saying?

And why can't you answer my previous questions:

"Who do you think is ignoring a polite request, and what polite request?"

Yes, you can absolutely do that. In fact, one would assume such a thing would not occur - lying, that is - without the necessity of a request.

I might hope, but I certainly don't expect that to be the case. Especially not after this clusterfuck.

I don't think I want to bother to define, "nice". That means you win!

I would hope it wouldn't be necessary either, but there you go.

In reference to the current debacle I don't think anyone involved really owes anyone else anything, given the critical lack of class that would usually engender a constructive reconciliation. But yeah, respecting someone's personal desire despite it being oddball to you is generally a "nice" thing.

If it comes up in the future, murder is not nice. You don't have to respect that. So we can say that between a minor pronoun change and murder is a grey area.

Or maybe we can't. Maybe every small consolation given, even the tiniest alteration from one's expected norm is an affront. On the internet anyway. Maybe it really is. Or maybe just here. It's kind of pointless in any case, isn't it?

Zinegata wrote:Crissa, stop linking racist slurs against the Hispanic and African-American community. Just because they don't have greater financial literacy doesn't mean they're stupid and more suceptible to loan sharks.

So, article said 'asian american' and being given a deal that could never have panned out positively is 'financial literacy'.

Wow. It's like blaming people for not reading the fine print that eating a bag of microwave popcorn a day would dissolve your lungs.

Maj wrote:

Count Arioch wrote:I understand you aren't feeling my previous assertions on the matter, but I do believe the best way to go about this is to attack the demand, not the supply. Crank down HARD on people hiring illegals, not the illegals themselves. To the point where it's no longer profitable to hire them. My way was only one possible way to do that.

My instinctive reaction to your proposal was, "Hell, no!" But really, when I examine the basis for the idea, I think you have a really good point. I have a few concerns, though... Firstly, the draw to come here would be even greater. Secondly, employers would tend to shy away from people who look like they might be immigrants so they can be "assured" of hiring American. Thirdly, how do you enforce/regulate under-the-table jobs?

First, the draw to come here is historically equal to the number of jobs available. Secondly, it's already illegal to do that. Third... It's tough, but as long as you have a chain of responsibility - you're responsible for your contractors' contractors - instead of letting employers skate because they insulated themselves. How do we stop Americans from being hired under the table? We watch bank accounts, taxes, and receipts.

Why should illegals be different? Why would there be more draw if they're less likely to get in trouble? There's an estimated ten million in the US (I think that's a bit high), there were only a few hundred thousand deportations in total. Companies who employed those aren't facing jail time, we can't prove they knew. So sure, it was pretty unlikely Wal-Mart didn't know their cleaning crews were illegal - since they locked them inside (illegal) and paid their 'employer' less than you would a random set of shelf-stockers - and they got away without any fines or jailtime.

And remember, while the plurality of illegals are latino, there are illegal Canadians, Europeans, Asians, etc.

But we can change the burden of proof for fines. We can make unknowingly hiring an illegal a crime - because they are supposed to do due diligence. And workers - no matter their status - are supposed to be under the same labor laws.

-Crissa

Maj wrote:Crissa: I am genuinely curious because I have no idea how you do it... Do you have a special edition of Google that returns only results from blogs?

Yes. It's called 'News'. When you use Google, it should be up top-left next to 'Images' and 'Web' etc. Of course, you have to remember what word was used in the news article and not on some right-wing blog, else you'll get a thousand right-wing blogs quoting each other @-@ (lefties do it too, though less often; I suppose because Instapundit started that quote-only-blog meme.)

I still don't know how Frank always finds appropriate images. I never find the images I'm looking for!

Kaelik wrote:I'm not calling Ceiling Cat a fake woman. I am pointing out that Ceiling Cat is physically male, but would rather be physically female. I may be wrong about specific desires, but that is how I understand it currently.

As such, I am going to treat Ceiling Cat exactly like anyone else who one quality, and would prefer to have an opposing quality.

What I don't understand is why I should instead treat Ceiling Cat differently than I do anyone else with a desire.

According to this study the transexual suicide rate is five times the national average. This would tell me that this is a group of people who at the very least experience something in their lives that makes them wish they were not alive. Now, I can't say whether thats the pain of living in a body that they don't identify with, the social stigma and bullying that transgender people get put through, or something else. What I can say, though, is that blindly equating it to "like wanting a tattoo" makes you sound like a dick. I couldn't find suicide rates for people who couldn't get tattoos on google.

The psychological trauma that living in the wrong body is well documented. Quoting from Wikipedia (I know its not the most reliable resource, but whatever): "The need for treatment is emphasized by the high rate of mental health problems, including depression, anxiety, and various addictions, as well as a higher suicide rate among untreated transsexual people than in the general population. These problems may be alleviated by a change of gender role and/or physical characteristics."

So, given that average rates of mental health problems are higher in the transgender population than the general population, are you willing to accept that wanting to change a fundamental part of yourself just may be more serious than wanting a new bike? Or do you believe that transgender people fake having mental illnesses and kill themselves just to skew the statistics?

CielingCat hasn't plastered her transgender all over the forums like some attention starved teenager. I really don't know what your big problem is. I would think we could at least rise above demeaning personal insults here. Isn't insulting someone's position, argument and intelligence enough?

Transgender isn't a noun, Rob, but great post ^-^

-Crissa

mean_liar wrote:But yeah, respecting someone's personal desire despite it being oddball to you is generally a "nice" thing.

Once again, have I ever even remotely even once claimed that I don't respect Ceiling Cat's desire? Do you think I also don't respect people who get tattoos?

What I want to know is, when I say "Getting Surgery is like getting a tattoo, it's something you do to make yourself feel better, and I support people doing what makes them feel better." Why is that me hating on transgender people?

What part of that constitutes evil bastard hatred? Really? Fucking answer me or stop whining about how I'm not nice.

mean_liar wrote:So we can say that between a minor pronoun change and murder is a grey area.

Or maybe we can't. Maybe every small consolation given, even the tiniest alteration from one's expected norm is an affront. On the internet anyway. Maybe it really is. Or maybe just here. It's kind of pointless in any case, isn't it?

Once again. I completely 100% without question complied with Ceiling Cat's objection to being referred to by male pronouns the first time I became aware of the issue. I did this despite the fact that Ceiling Cat had just called me a racist and a sexist.

I did this even though Ceiling Cat has steadfastly refused to this date to even once actually request that I use female pronouns, instead choosing to call me a sexist for not doing something I have never even once been asked to do by the aggreived party.

But I'm a horrible asshole for this? Now answer my damn fucking question you fucking liar:

"Who do you think is ignoring a polite request, and what polite request?"

Red_Rob wrote:According to this study the transexual suicide rate is five times the national average. This would tell me that this is a group of people who at the very least experience something in their lives that makes them wish they were not alive. Now, I can't say whether thats the pain of living in a body that they don't identify with, the social stigma and bullying that transgender people get put through, or something else. What I can say, though, is that blindly equating it to "like wanting a tattoo" makes you sound like a dick. I couldn't find suicide rates for people who couldn't get tattoos on google.

Yes, because getting a tattoo costs 20 bucks, and getting massive surgery and hormone treatments costs 20,000 dollars.

So what. Ceiling Cat feels more strongly about this desire than most (but probably not all) people who get tattoos. I don't care how strongly someone feels about what they want, it doesn't magically transform into something besides a desire.

Red_Rob wrote:So, given that average rates of mental health problems are higher in the transgender population than the general population, are you willing to accept that wanting to change a fundamental part of yourself just may be more serious than wanting a new bike? Or do you believe that transgender people fake having mental illnesses and kill themselves just to skew the statistics?

No. Wanting to change a fundamental part of yourself is harder, requires more work, and takes more money than wanting a new bike, but it is not "more serious" or what you mean by that "more important." It is just as important. When someone has a desire to do something that has no serious effects on anyone else, then what the thing they want to do is immaterial. All possible things like that are equally important. And caring more about something doesn't make it more important.

It doesn't matter if I'm willing to kill myself over not getting to have my mind duplicated as a computer, it will continue to be no more or less important than if someone wants to start working out to lose weight.

Red_Rob wrote:CielingCat hasn't plastered her transgender all over the forums like some attention starved teenager. I really don't know what your big problem is. I would think we could at least rise above demeaning personal insults here. Isn't insulting someone's position, argument and intelligence enough?

I really don't know what everyone else's big problem with me is. I have made very clear that my position on transgenderism is that it is a desire that has no direct negative consequences on any bystanders, and so should be unconditionally supported, just like all other desires that have no direct negative consequences on bystanders.

What demeaning personal insult are you talking about.

Kaelik wrote: Except that since you apparently have an XY chromosone pair, what you are apparently objecting to is calling a black person black. You are physically male, and apparently don't want to be. That sucks for you. I also have various desires for changing my body, some of which are not possible, and some of which are much easier than saving up $20,000 and doing whatever else you have to do.

It's a sad, sad day when I agree with Kaelik, but I really have to side with him on this one.

Saying you're a male or female means something. It has very little to do with actual mannerisms. We all know the stereotype of the effeminate gay guys, but we still call them dudes.

What we're talking about here is biology. And biology deals in facts. There are specific criteria for something being male and specific criteria for something being female. To deny those facts is lying to yourself and others. Wanting to be a girl is a desire. Believing you are a girl, when you are in fact not... that's a delusion.

If you feel more comfortable in women's clothing you can totally wear that shit, but you have to accept that you're a guy wearing women's clothing. Running around telling people you're a girl is lying to them. It doesn't matter that you redefine what man/woman is in your own mind, calling yourself a girl is disingenuous because you know damn well that other people have the standard definition of male and female. People that call you a man are in fact stating a biological fact.

I'd like to be a billionaire. My bank account says otherwise. If I walk around telling people I'm a billionaire, I'm a liar. If I believe myself to be a billionaire and start trying to live like one, I'd be deluded.

Facts are facts, you don't change them simply by declaring the opposite.

Kaelik wrote:So what. Ceiling Cat feels more strongly about this desire than most (but probably not all) people who get tattoos. I don't care how strongly someone feels about what they want, it doesn't magically transform into something besides a desire.

Kaelik, the fact that "desire" covers so many facets of human emotion is one of the limitations of the language. To you, are the following things all equal:
[*] A slaves desire for freedom
[*] A transgendered persons desire to feel comfortable in their own body
[*] A hostages desire not to be tortured
[*] My desire to get Lord of the Rings on Blu-ray
[*] Your desire to play D&D this weekend

If you see no difference in importance between any of these things, please say so.

Oh, and the demeaning insult I was talking about was comparing being born in the wrong body to wanting a tattoo.

I, having been born a white male in a Western country, have never suffered sexism or racism. I have been picked on for being a geek now and then, but I have never been discriminated against for something I can't help. As such, I don't really know what it feels like to be called a N*gger, or a slut, or a [EDITED]. So, when people who have had these kind of insults hurled at them tell me its worse than being called a dick, or a bastard, I have to accept that, and not say "well I got called an asshole yesterday and I'm okay, so stop getting so worked up!". Similarly, when someone tells you that being born the wrong sex affects your life in ways much deeper than simply the cosmetic, you have to accept that because you haven't experienced it. And trying to relate it to something trivial demeans that person and what they have been through.

So stop comparing it to getting a fucking tattoo.

Crissa->

How could you deny that your link was racist? It says blacks and hispanics are gullible and suceptible to loan sharks!

Don't worry. God will forgive you as long as you eventually repent!

Save your soul Crissa. Save your immortal soul! Repent!

Red_Rob wrote:So stop comparing it to getting a fucking tattoo.

People don't assign the same value to everything.

Some people value being polite. Some people value being a jackass over being polite. Some people value being able to treat people appropriately.

For some people, getting a tattoo is as important as not feeling as though they're trapped in the wrong gender.

Also, again, really, the people ragging Kaelik are mainly ignorant hypocrites. About 90% of the things said against him are stuff that he never actually said.

Red_Rob wrote:Kaelik, the fact that "desire" covers so many facets of human emotion is one of the limitations of the language. To you, are the following things all equal:
[*] A slaves desire for freedom
[*] A transgendered persons desire to feel comfortable in their own body
[*] A hostages desire not to be tortured
[*] My desire to get Lord of the Rings on Blu-ray
[*] Your desire to play D&D this weekend

If you see no difference in importance between any of these things, please say so.

There is no difference between the importance of those things other than the degree someone might feel about them.

A law that prohibits the playing of D&D or buying of LotRs is just as bad as a law enforcing slavery.

Red_Rob wrote:Oh, and the demeaning insult I was talking about was comparing being born in the wrong body to wanting a tattoo.

Once again, Ceiling Cat was not born in the wrong body. Ceiling Cat was born in a body that for whatever reason, as it progressed, developed a brain that wants to be in a different body.

Just like people with tattoos were born in bodies that had brains progress to wanting to be in a body with a tattoo.

That's not a demeaning personal insult. It is a statement of fact.

Red_Rob wrote:I have never been discriminated against for something I can't help.

This statement makes no sense. There is nothing that you can help. You are a geek, and that is not something you can turn off. That is literally something that you cannot help.

You could not act like a geek, but gays can also not have sex with members of the same sex. They are still gay.

Red_Rob wrote:So, when people who have had these kind of insults hurled at them tell me its worse than being called a dick, or a bastard, I have to accept that, and not say "well I got called an asshole yesterday and I'm okay, so stop getting so worked up!".

When someone calls me a [EDITED] it is worse for me personally, than being called a dick or a bastard. That doesn't make it worse for me to be called a [EDITED] than for someone else to be called whatever most hurts them or pisses them off.

What most pisses me off is being called any insult that implies irrationality, which sexism and racism both do, so those really piss me off. That doesn't mean that it's worse than other people getting called bitch or fuckface to them.

Red_Rob wrote:Similarly, when someone tells you that being born the wrong sex affects your life in ways much deeper than simply the cosmetic, you have to accept that because you haven't experienced it. And trying to relate it to something trivial demeans that person and what they have been through.

So stop comparing it to getting a fucking tattoo.

When someone tells you they are born with the wrong sex, they are not making sense. If they say, "I was born with a different sex than I would prefer to have." That makes sense, but you can't have a "wrong" sex without explaining what it is wrong compared to.

And once again, tattoo is trivial to me and you, but to some people, it's really fucking important. I don't understand how you can completely dismiss some people's desires without a concern in the world at the same time demanding that other desires be respected.

Kaelik wrote:But I'm a horrible asshole for this? Now answer my damn fucking question you fucking liar:

"Who do you think is ignoring a polite request, and what polite request?"

Kaelik, you are a horrible asshole without this thread. You know that.

Anyway, I never accused anyone of anything and simply tried to inject some levity into a thread chock-full of utter bullshit. I suppose I could go all LIAR LIAR OMG FUCK UUUUUU and ask you to quote me where I said you were ignoring this or that, but I'll make it easy on you:

I have NO IDEA what polite request was asked. I THINK it had to do with pronouns. But because I don't care, I don't care. I wrote up a small post about how it would be nice if people were nice, and then you decided that it was time to call me a fucking liar.

You are a terrible piece of shit. On the internet, anyway.

RC, all science points to the 'delusion' of gender identity and sexual preference as being biologic in nature. Of course, it's not much in the way of evidence - we can only slice up dead people's brains, of course - but it is evidence.

You might as well say men are delusional for liking the western male gender. Which they may be, there's more evidence for that than gender dysphoria being a delusion. Either way, there is no evidence (at least, none that hasn't be debunked) that gender dysphoria can be cured. So what ethics do you have to torture people because of a harmless delusion?

Also, not all men or women have XY or XX chromosomes. There is a high correlation, and it may be some source of the cause of physical sex, but it isn't the only determinator.

-Crissa

PS: Zinegata, we know you have no idea what the word racist means. Black people suffer from more sickle-cell anemia and buy more hair straighteners. Is that racist, too? No. Observing racism isn't racism. You're a idiot, btw.

Zinegata wrote:For some people, getting a tattoo is as important as not feeling as though they're trapped in the wrong gender.

I happen to live in the UK. Here we have a national health service that provides free treatment for medical conditions, however not for cosmetic operations. This ensures that people get access to free healthcare, however you still have to pay if you want a facelift or whatever.

According to your prediction, if wanting a tattoo and wanting gender re-assignment surgery carry equal weight, I guess either both will be available at the same level, or neither will. In fact, as tattoos cost £20 and trans surgery cost £20,000 we should see 1000 times as many tattoos approved, right?

Oh wait, treatment for tattoos is limited to removing tattoos that are causing significant mental health problems due to discrimination whilst gender dysphoria has a detailed and lengthy diagnosis and treatment process.

Its almost like being transgendered is a legitimate and recognised condition that is nothing like wanting a fucking tattoo. How odd.

Crissa->

And now you claim God afflicts blacks with more diseases? God is not racist!

He did not pick some of his children to be more easily afflicted with diseases than others.

Don't worry. He will forgive you for your sins. Just learn to repent! Accept that you are a racist and turn away from the dark side!